Shabad Kirtan:  Mohe Lagti Talabeli by Bhai Nirmal Singh Ji.  Thank you for this soulful kirtan. 

by Harnaak Singh

I had a chuckle when I saw a post “Logic and Sikhi – Part 1”, that seems to be a RECYCLED post, by Asia Samachar (AS) on 24-09-2017 (I recall that HB Singh of AS gave me a hard time on my first, which was also the last article on AS, rejected my proposal for further contribution to AS, tried to smear me via his post on 12-Mar-2017 and I believe even tried to call me to intimidate meThank you, Gurvichar, for giving me an opportunity to share my thoughts and the TRUTH with the Sangat.   Thank you, Sangat Ji, for reading my articles.)

 I am compelled to ELUCIDATE to the Sangat and warn them of the DEVIANT, MISLEADING and FALSE statements the author KARMINDER is making.   

Note: Karminder is the head of the Dharam Prachar Committee of MGC and is well supported by Asia Samachar.  It is believed he operates on a number of FAKE IDs on facebook.  Suspected ones are KVLKaur, Lota Kaur Gill, and who knows what else.  He is one of the Kala Afghana Brigade actively preaching deviant distortion of Sikhi. Another FB community page they have opened is “Malalysian Sikh Sangat” see Figure 1, recently set up as a copy of another FB page of the same name to cause confusion to the Malaysian Sangat.  Keep away from these deviant preachers.  Besides this you will find deviant preaching also on another FB page and website with name “Sikhi Vichar Forum (SVF)” which is also propagating the Kala Afghana Brigade ideology.  They purport to abide by the Sikh Rehat Maryada whence they actually do not.  They condemn Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s compositions with the most venomous and vulgar language while the SRM DEFINES Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s compositions AS GURBANISee Figure 2 where SRM states “… (c) in the congregation, kirtan only of Gurbani (Guru Granth’s or Guru Gobind Singh’s hymns) ”.  How can they claim to abide by the SRM? 

Figure 1: Imitation “Malaysian Sikh Sangat” FB community with deviant Kala Afghana Brigade views

170925 MSS Copy Deviant

Figure 2: SRM defines Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s compositions as Gurbani



I quote from Karminder’s article 

In fact, the entire Sri Guru Granth SahibJji – from Ek Oangkar right down to Mundavni – is a long persuasive and a logical discourse 

I would say such a statement is a real TALL ORDER.  BUT he is able to make this conclusion based on a few verses he quoted; seems to have PUT HIMSELF in our GURUS SHOES to make such a claim.  

Isn’t it a MIRACLE that he can do so, using just a few verses?

Before we proceed to discuss this article let me list the “ACHIEVMENTS?” of Karminder.  The table below summarises these “achievements?” which have all been dealt with at Gurvichar. 

Please note that you can skip the table if you are pressed for time.

Table 1: Distortion of Gurbani and Sikh History by Karminder

1. Amrit Vela is anytime a Sikh chooses Amrit Vela is the few hours before sunrise (see Link A
2. Amrit Vela refers to the first phase i.e. Early stages of one’s life before childhood (this is from conception to about 1 year of age) Amrit Vela is the few hours before sunrise (see Link B)
3. Mahakaal and Durga are primary Gods of Dasam Granth Guru Gobind Singh does not believe in Devi-Devtas.  Mahakaal is God, the death of deathsDurga means Bhaghauti which stands for God (Piri) on one hand and Sword (Miri) on the other hand. God of SGGS Ji is the same as for DG (see Link C).  
4. ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਪੂਰੀ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਅਨਿਕ ਗੁਣਾ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਜਾਹਿ ਨ ਗਣੇ ॥ implies Ek Granth Nowhere in the verse, is stated that SGGS Ji is the ONLY GRANTH though it is clear that SGGS is our LIVING GURU, the embodiment of the TEN Gurus.  (see Link D)
5. “Many a time our Ragis, Kathakaars, and Kirtanias take a single verse and make just about anything out of it to establish a point of their personal choosing” and he goes on to state “…we should never attempt to use single verses from Gurbani” and then he adds “We SHOULD BE SUSPICIOUS on those who insist on taking just one or two verses and try to explain major spiritual principles to us based on that one or two single verses”. Karminder seems to be doing exactly this i.e. using a single verse to make a global claim to meet his agenda.  This appears to be his favourite practice; it is sort of endemic in him.  And this also comes across as hypocritical – Do what I say but don’t do what I do! (see Link D)
6. The concept of Ek Granth Ek Panth is rooted philosophically in the SGGS on page 646 “Eka Banee Ek Gur Eko Shabad Vichaar The verse in the second Stanza (or Slok) of Paurdi 10 of Vaar of Fourth Guru in Raag Soorath.  The paurdi has the core message and the Sloks elaborate the Paurdi.  The gist of the Paurdi is “Those who are permeated by falsehood do not speak the truth.  Only falsehood satisfies them. They are like crows who eat manure. Only by meditation on Naam and by the grace of God will the fraud and sin in them disappear”.  There is no reference to Ek Granth or Ek Panth.  (see Link E)
7. Karminder crudely states Jup is not chanting. “That has to be cleared out of our minds. We have reduced, relegated, downtrodden, trampled upon, stepped on … the process of Naam Jupnaa to chanting. Guru Nanak came all the way, for 70 years, through 10 Gurus, to tell us to chant? I’m having trouble with that.”

He says Jap or Jup ਜਪੁ is not chantingNaam ਨਾਮੁ is not Name (as translated).

Chant or ਜਪ is one of the methods of reciting NAAM prescribed in Gurbani.  

NAAM ਨਾਮ is generally translated as Name though this word has a wide implication.  

NAAM is more so the process of reciting/ reflecting/ meditating/ chanting/ listening/ teaching/ understanding Gurbani.

So actually it is Karminder who has reduced, relegated, downtrodden, trampled upon, stepped on….the process of Naam Jupnaa to be a MAJOR MISLEAD. He wants us to be SPIRITUALLY LAME. (see Link F)

8. Based on ਸਿਤਗੁਰੂ ਬਿਨਾ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਹੈ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ Satgur Bina Hor Kachee Hai Banee only the Banee in SGGS Ji is sachee banee implying all else is Kachee Banee. Sachee Banee ਸਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ is utterances that are in line with our Guru’s teachings internalising which we acquire the 5 virtues and move away from Maya (the 5 evils).  This also includes the utterances in Dasam Granth. (see Link G)
9. Mythological references in SGGS Ji should be discarded. Our Gurus in SGGS Ji have made references to the various saints and disciples who existed at the time of the Hindu deities (mythological references). These references is not praise or worship of the Hindu deities but used figuratively to explain the teachings in Gurbani. The events from Hindu mythology were known to the general populace during that period and this made it easier to explain the concepts taught by our Gurus. (see Link G)
10. Nanak said he won’t wear Janeau because it was not put for his elder sister Nanaki. This statement is false and misleading as there is no historical record of such a statement by Guru Nanak Dev Ji. (see Link H)
11. Guru Nanak’s father, Mehta Kalyan Das was a minister ਮੰਤਰੀ in the court of the then king. This statement is also incorrect and  misleading since historical records show that Guru Nanak’s father was a “patvari” meaning accountant and/or administrative officer. (see Link H)
12. Karminder lists the couplet as follows.

Dhor, Gavaar, Shudar, Psu, Naree. Yeh Pancho Tarran Ke Adhikari

Livestock, Stupid folk, Low caste People, Animals and Women These Five are Deserving of being Caged and Beaten

The actual couplet (from Tulsidas Ramayana) is

Dhola Gavara Sudra Pasu Nari, Sakala Tarana ke Adhikari

A drum, a rustic, a Sudra, a beast and a woman – all these deserve instructions. (see Link H)

13. The final verse of shabads, which do not have a RAHAO, is equivalent to the RAHAO verse. RAHAO is poetic genre related.  When used, it is the climatic or key verse. When RAHAO is not used there is no particular key verse in the shabad.  Our Guru Ji’s know when to include a Rahao verseAre we smarter than our Gurus to start creating Rahao verse in a Shabad without one. (see Link J)
14. There are 5000 Rahaos in SGGS Ji The number of Rahaos in SGGS Ji actually is 2686. (see Link J)
15. The dictionary meaning of Rahao is useless. (Rahao means Pause) The dictionary meaning of Rahao i.e. Pause is very apt.  The Rahao verse is normally of different length than the other verses and is an indication where a PAUSE should be used to maintain the cyclic rhythm when singing the shabad. (see Link J).  


Karminder’s ACHIEVEMENTS do not appear to be very convincing for anyone to trust such MISCONSTRUED, LUDICROUS, FALSE, MISLEADING, Anti-Gurmat and Anti-Sikhi claims he makes.   

These claims are possibly out of the Kala Afghana Brigade Granth.

Based on this we could safely conclude that the claim, he makesthe entire Sri Guru Granth SahibJji … is a long persuasive and a logical discourse is also FALSE.

However  we shall analyse this ludicrous claim anyway.


What is logic and reason?

Logic and reason is based on the decisions of our MIND ਮਨ. The classical definition of logic and reason is REASON: a cause, explanation or justification for a belief or action; LOGIC: reasoning conducted according to strict principles of validity.

Logic and reason, as classically defined, is practically impossible to apply in spirituality because of the subjective nature of actions being classified as good or bad.  One can always justify one’s any action with one’s own level of right or wrong.  This is where Gurmat comes in, and where we acquire this ability to discriminate right or wrong, good or bad based on TRUTH.

Let us delve a little further.   We look at our inner-self antahkaran. The ਮਨ MAN (see Figure 3) in the antahkaran is the source of all our actions through the action organs.  

Figure 3:  Functional diagram of relationship between, the All pervading consciousness, ਅੰਤਹਕਰਣ antahkaran and ਇੰਦਰੀਆਂ action and sense organs showing the internal functional blocks in antahkaran 


The input to the decision making is from our sense organs.  What GuruJi advised us is that our ਮਨ MAN, influenced by the five evils (through our mind’s instincts and materialism ਮਨਮਤ), executes undesired actions through our action organs and these are a part of MAYA.  GuruJi is saying these actions are not going to lead us on the TRUE path (the path to the All-pervading consciousness) and that we must use discriminative intelligence (ਬਿਬੇਕ ਬੁਧੀ) acquired from Gurbani i.e. Gurmat ਗੁਰਮਤ.  The appropriate actions (in Gurbani ਗੁਮੁਖਿ ਕਰਮ), which we will know through ਬਿਬੇਕ ਬੁਧੀ discriminative intelligence, learned from Gurbani, will help us to move in the right direction.  

However it is through meditation simran ਸਿਮਰਨ, which is CONTEMPLATION AND REFLECTION leading to the ALL-PERVADING HIGHER CONSCIOUSNESS, will we have TRUE appreciation and understanding of Gurbani and attain God realisation.  

It is VERY IMPORTANT to understand that, 

  • ਬਿਬੇਕ ਬੁਧੀ discriminative intelligence so we may know between what is right and what is wrong based on TRUTH learned from Gurbani AND
  • Simran which is contemplation and reflection on the creator

are different.  

In figure 3 this is reflected as

  • the path to the action organs being the former  AND
  • as the path through the sehaj ਸਹਜ and Simran block that leads to the higher consciousness being the latter. 

Contemplate and reflect on this to really see the difference.

So ਬਿਬੇਕ ਬੁਧੀ ‘discriminative intelligence’, as far as TRUTH is concerned, is not entirely LOGIC and REASONING as claimed by Karminder and the Brigade.  It is Gurmat ਗੁਰਮਤ based actions the Gurbani refers to as ਬਿਬੇਕ ਬੁਧੀ.  You cannot apply YOUR own LOGIC and REASON i.e. ਮਨਮਤ to interpret Gurbani the word of God.  We use credible sources including our historical records to understand Gurbani.


Logic and reason can result in EXTREME DISTORTION of Gurbani

There is an overzealous trend by Karminder and the Kala Afghana Brigade to fit the teachings of Gurbani into Science/logic/reason, i.e. ਮਨਮਤ, and in the process distort some of the concepts to meet with what they think is suitable for MODERN times.

Though Gurbani talks about the creation and the universe and our role in it, it is by no means a treatise on cosmos/science. Science and Religion serve two different purposes as Gurbani, as the Encyclopaedia of Sikhism, and Nobel laureate Rabindranath Tagore point out.

This overzealous trend is clearly shown in an article “How do we interpret Gurbani?” by Prof Devinder Chahal, PhD on page 16 of Sikh Bulletin, Volume 18 Number 7 & 8, July-August 2016 available at “http://sikhbulletin.com/Bulletins/ SikhBulletinJulAug2016.pdf” refers.  Devinder Chahal is an associate of Karminder who is also one of the supporters of the Kala Afghana Brigade.

Devinder’s logical/reasoning based interpretation of 

ਦੁਖੁ ਦਾਰੂ ਸੁਖੁ ਰੋਗ ਭਇਆ ਜਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਤਾਮਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥  SGGS 469


When somebody is living pleasurable and sedentary life, one becomes prone to a number of diseases/troubles/problems. However, those who exert (take pain/trouble) in workouts (structured regime of physical exercise) are resistant to these issues. The workouts become the medicine/remedy to prevent all such diseases/troubles/problems; or (in other words), once a pleasurable and healthy life is achieved through proper workouts, then no such diseases can occur.

Though the translation by the author appears SCIENTIFIC, LOGICAL and with REASONING, it does not give the message of Gurbani, in fact it is misleading, implying that Gurbani is teaching us to exercise.  A book on exercise would provide more details on benefits and outcomes.

This is what will happen if we give a free hand to Karminder and the Kala Afghana Brigade to preach Gurbani based on LOGIC and REASON to the Sangat.


What does Gurbani say?

We will consider only one Shabad to show the falsehood of Karminder.

We analyse logic and reason ਤਰਕੁੁ through Namdev’s shabad SGGS 693 Namdev Dhanasari.  

ਪਹਿਲ ਪੁਰੀਏ ਪੁੰਡਰਕ ਵਨਾ ॥ ਤਾ ਚੇ ਹੰਸਾ ਸਗਲੇ ਜਨਾਂ ॥ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਤੇ ਜਾਨਊ ਹਿਰ ਹਿਰ ਨਾਚੰਤੀ ਨਾਚਨਾ ॥੧॥

First of all, the lotuses bloomed in the woods; from them, all the swan-souls came into being.  Know that, through Krishna, the Lord, Har, Har, the dance of creation dances. ||1||

ਪਹਿਲ ਪੁਰਸਾਬਿਰਾ ॥ ਅਥਨੋ ਪੁਰਸਾਦਮਰਾ ॥ ਅਸਗਾ ਅਸ ਉਸਗਾ ॥ ਹਿਰ ਕਾ ਬਾਗਰਾ ਨਾਚੈ ਪਿੰਧੀ ਮਿਹ ਸਾਗਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

First of all, there was only the Primal Being. From that Primal Being, Maya was produced. All that is, is His. In this Garden of the Lord, we all dance, like water in the pots of the Persian wheel. ||1||Pause||

ਨਾਚੰਤੀ ਗੋਪੀ ਜੰਨਾ ॥ ਨਈਆ ਤੇ ਬੈਰੇ ਕੰਨਾ ॥ ਤਰਕੁ ਨ ਚਾ ॥ ਭ੍ਰਮੀਆ ਚਾ ॥ ਕੇਸਵਾ ਬਚਉਨੀ ਅਈਏ ਮਈਏ ਏਕ ਆਨ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥

Women and men both dance. There is no other than the Lord. Don’t dispute this, and don’t doubt this. The Lord says, “This creation and I are one and the same.”||2||

In the third verse of the second stanza of the Shabad the word reason ਤਰਕੁ is used.  Gurbani talks about creation and the goings-on in the creation.  God existed before creation, God created the creation (MAYA) which “dances” according to the tune of God.  

Now comes the important part. Don’t dispute means don’t try to reason or logically deduce (ਤਰਕੁ ਨ ਚਾ), don’t even doubt this (ਭ੍ਰਮੀਆ ਚਾ) that God’s (ਕੇਸਵਾ) Hukam (ਬਚਉਨੀ) pervades (ਏਕ ਆਨ ਜੀਉ) the creation (ਅਈਏ ਮਈਏ – man and woman metaphorically means the creation).

It is interesting to note that Namdev states don’t try to reason that God pervades the entire creation.  Shabads are found throughout Gurbani which give this same message. 

There you go.  Even Gurbani does not agree with this Fake Self-made Guru.


Gurbani does not agree with this Fake Self-made Guru who says thatthe entire Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji – from Ek Oangkar right down to Mundavniis a long persuasive and a logical discourse.

Without Gurbani teaching (Gurmat) we cannot use our logic or reasoning to decide on what is right (good) and what is wrong (bad) as this will be biased by our five evils.  Our Gurus had decided through their own methods what we are to learn through our scriptures and our role is to contemplate and reflect on these teachings and then put them into practice.

Without Gurbani teaching (Gurmat) we cannot use our logic or reasoning to decide on what is right (good) and what is wrong (bad) as this will be biased by our five evils.

Relying on logic and/or reasoning can result in misinterpretation of Gurbani and preaching this to the Sangat will do a disservice to the Sangat as well as cause a divide in the Sangat.

BEWARE OF THIS FAKE SELF-MADE GURU lest your mind’s become MISLEAD by his MISCONSTRUED, LUDICROUS, FALSE, MISLEADING, Anti-Gurmat and Anti-Sikhi claims.

Thank You for reading.  ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖਾਲਸਾ  ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਹਿ

Please download you copy of the PDF 170925 Logic Reasoning Gurbani REVISITED