Shabad Kirtan: Moorakh Man Kahe Karsai Manaa by Bhai Balwinder Singh Ji Rangila.  Thank You Ji for the beautiful kirtan.

by Harnaak Singh

We are going to analyse the comment, by Karminder, related to the article at Gurvichar LINK AHis comment is shown in Figure 1.


It must be very painful for Karminder that we have shown his Guru Sarabjeet Dhunda exhibits limited intelligence and lack of knowledge in general, and Gurbani in particular.  Further with his limited intelligence, full of ego, Dhunda doubts Gurbani.  This generally leads to misinterpretation of Gurbani.

Karminder in the post shows he himself in not in touch and of the same Dhunda ‘herd’.  He quotes verses from the shabad by Namdev and tries to mislead the Sangat by using fancy words like 

  • These pundits may as well argue that fish exits the water to climb up a date tree!!.  
  • silly me (non pundit) works towards realizing the Omnipresent (RAMHEY) God

This moorakh too does not understand how Guru Ji uses metaphors to teach us Gurbani.  These metaphors Guru Ji uses are observation of events or accepted stories.  

Guru Ji does not make up false events or stories

This is UNLIKE what THESE DOUBTERS who make up false stories to prop up their anti-Sikhi and anti-Gurmat Kala Afghana teachings which have no credible philosophical and /or historical basis.  All they fall on is nothing more than logic, reason and critical thinking.  

Figure 1: Karminder on ‘Fish spawning on tree’.

 171009 Fish Tree

171009 Karminder Fish Tree

We will analyse what he has posted.

Before we start we put it to Karminder that he can’t even differentiate between spawn and grow.  Figure 2 would make more sense.  Suggest that he understands this picture in Figure 2 properly.

Figure 2: ‘Fish spawning NOT GROWING on tree’.

171009 Fish Spawn Tree


Note: Karminder’s post is in italics.

By Dr Karminder Singh Dhillon.

The verses are composed by Bhagat Namdev ji. 

The context is the debate amongst the “educated” clergy (Pandits) and those who have actually realized God. *KOYEE BOLEY NERWAA KOYEE BOLEY DHOOR* Meaning: Some of the pundits assert He is near; others argue He is afar.

The word BOLEY means to utter, to speak, to talk.  There is no question of argument in the verse.  ‘Argue means “TARAK KARNA”, “VAAD VIVAD KARNA”.  So we see how clever use of words can alter the meaning of the verse.  There is no mention of the word argue in the verse. 

What the shabad teaches us?

The meaning of the verses he quoted

ਕੋਈ ਬੋਲੈ ਨਿਰਵਾ ਕੋਈ ਬੋਲੈ ਦੂਰਿ ॥

Some utter (ਕੋਈ ਬੋਲੈ) He is near (ਨਿਰਵਾ) some utter (ਕੋਈ ਬੋਲੈ) He is far (ਦੂਰਿ)

The meaning of this verse is very clear.  Namdev states that some say God is near and some say he is far.  There is no question of argument.

ਜਲ ਕੀ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਚਰੈ ਖਜੂਰਿ ॥੧॥

The fish (ਮਾਛੁਲੀ) that lives in water (ਜਲ ਕੀ) climbs up (ਚਰੈ) a date palm (ਖਜੂਰਿ). 

This verse is interesting; it is a beautiful use of metaphors.  First we must understand that the date palm grows in arid or semi-arid climate more so in the desert.  It will not grow near a lake or river because the ground there is not suitable.  So without doubt, fish are not expected to be found near date palm tree.  The question here is “not of climbing a tree” but of “coexistence”.  It is very important to understand this.

Then we can relate to the first part of the verse.  The concept that God is near (some utter He is near) and that God is far (some utter He is far), taken individually, cannot coexist.  This is more a question of the location of God, i.e. where God can be found.

The next verse in the shabad is the Rahao verse.  The first part of the Rahao verse now clarifies the points raised in the first verse.  

ਕਾਂਇ ਰੇ ਬਕਬਾਦੁ ਲਾਇਓ ॥

Why do you (ਕਾਂਇ ਰੇ) utter or speak nonsense (ਬਕਬਾਦੁ ਲਾਇਓ).  

It is very important to understand the word ਬਕਬਾਦੁ.  It is made up of two words; ਬਕ speak or utter and ਬਾਦ wind.  ‘Speaking wind’ implies saying something of no value (i.e. trying to identify by reason, logic or critical thinking, the location of God is of no value).  So, combined the meaning of ਬਕਬਾਦੁ is uttering or speaking nonsense.  This part of the Rahao verse is questioning concepts which cannot coexist.  The next verse gives a hint as to how we will relate to the location.

ਜਿਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਇਓ ਤਿਨਹਿ ਛਪਾਇਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Those who (ਜਿਨਿ) realise God (ਹਰਿ ਪਾਇਓ), they (ਤਿਨਹਿ) keep silent of this fact (ਛਪਾਇਓ).

This part of the verse states those who have realised God do not make an issue of the concepts of their realisation as to the LOCATION OF GOD or where God can be found.  They remain silent about it (Why? see below).  This is further clarified in the next verse.

ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਹੋਇ, ਕੈ ਬੇਦੁ ਬਖਾਨੈ ॥

Being Pandits, religious scholars, experts (ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਹੋਇ), which (ਕੈ) Veda (ਬੇਦੁ) explains this (ਬਖਾਨੈ).

Here Namdev poses the question to the Pandits, religious scholars, experts (Drs??) “which Veda explain this”; here ‘this’ refers to the question of co-existence?   Namdev gives the answer in the next part.

ਮੂਰਖੁ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਰਾਮਹਿ ਜਾਨੈ ॥੨॥੧॥

Foolish (ਮੂਰਖੁ) Namdev (ਨਾਮਦੇਉ) says only GOD (ਰਾਮਹਿ) knows (ਜਾਨੈ).

Here Namdev terms himself as foolish.  Interesting.  What he really means is that he is not as learned as the Pandits, scholars, experts, (Drs??) BUT what he has realised is that only God knows (refer to Rahao verse).  And this realisation he cannot explain.  What this means is that those who have realised God, cannot give you a method based on reason, logic or critical thinking to understand where God is.

So the summary of the shabad is 


Why are they silent about it?  Because this, location, can only be REALISED BY EXPERIENCE, not explained through REASON, LOGIC or CRITICAL THINKING.  They cannot explain it but can only indicate how you can experience this.  Proper credible understanding of Gurbani will give us the method, the key of which is SHARDA, of realising this,

This debate is futile since neither side has realized Him. *JUL KEE MACHLEE CHAREY KHAZOOR.*! Meaning: These pundits may as well argue that fish exits the water to climb up a date tree!! The final verses are *PUNDIT HOEY KAY BAED BAKHANAI. MOORAKH NAMDEO RAMHEY JANAI.*

What debate is this moorakh Karminder talking about.  We have clearly seen that in the shabad there is no mention of a debate.  There was no debate.  The key theme is the location of God or where God can be foundThe starting verse states this CLEARLY.  Karminder is creating what it not referred to in the shabad to prop his ideas.

Meaning. You pundits can keep arguing about futile matters. While silly me (non pundit) works towards realizing the Omnipresent (RAMHEY) God. Namdev’s God is omnipresent hence to say He is NEAR or FAR is as nonsensical as stating a fish climbs up a date tree.

Once again Karminder is barking up the wrong tree.  Namdev is not referring to any debate or agrument.  NOW HE THROWS IN ANOTHER BOMBSHELL.  Where is the question of OMNIPRESCENCE of GOD mentioned in this shabad?  Namdev says that, only the GOD realised know this, BUT there is no statement of the OMNIPRESENCE of GOD.  Of course we know that GOD is OMNIPRESENT but this is not the point taken up in the shabad. 

When we interpret a shabad we must keep to what the shabad means otherwise the true meaning of the shabad will be lost.  Unfortunately these Kala Afghana Ideologists go around mixing different concepts into a shabad which distracts from the core meaning of the shabad.  What happens is a “ROJAK explanation of” or “confusion in understanding of” the shabad.

It is clear that Namdev ji is expressing a rebuking critique regarding the debate between the spiritually empty pundits. He thus resorts to the idiom – fish up a date tree – to make his point cryptically. If someone was to write Namdev jis idea in English he or she would probably say “These pundits may as well say the cow jumped over the moon and the fork ran away with the spoon”

We have written Namdev’s idea and nowhere have we used the phrase Karminder quotes.  He does not even understand the meaning of the shabad.  Not surprising.  Useless fancy words used to create confusion.  

We continue.

The desire is to condemn Bhai Sarabjeet S. Dhunda ji surely cannot be so deep that one pretends not to understand the intended usage of the idiom. 

The desire was to expose to the Sangat, how learned Dhunda is and that he doubts Gurbani, him being a preacher of Gurbani to the Sangat.  We condemn and expose one’s misleading concepts espoused to the Sangat; this is our RIGHT AS SIKHS OF THE GURU.  This is not what we do BUT you cannot speak as such of yourself and your cohorts.  DHUNDA IS THE ONE WHO GOES AROUND CONDEMNING everybody in an arrogant manner.  His katha IS MORE ABOUT CONDEMNING OTHERS than about preaching TRUE Gurbani.  This is very much akin to your style KarminderCondemn everybody and that they have to UNLEARN what they have learnt so far and RELEARN the “bullxxxx” you preach. 

There are multiple other similar examples in Gurbani. Here is one. *KAHO KABEER PARGUT BHAYEE KHED. LELEY KO CHUNGEY NIT BHED.* SGGS Page 326. Meaning. Kabeer, a strange play has come to exist. The mother lamb is sucking milk out of her baby lamb. It’s obviously an idiomatic expression that reflects the *irony of spiritual behaviors* amongst some people. Now IF somebody puts up a UTube video of a sheep sucking her lamb: is Kabeer going to be proven wrong ? He cannot be right or wrong becos he is NOT making a factual assertion about the sheep and the lamb. He is *merely stating an existing idiom*.

It is not our intent to analyse the verse you threw in.  This is your favourite, you do it despite espousing that fools (others) uses single verses to justify their position.  See LINK B and your audio dated 13-Nov-2016.  Aren’t you, Karminder, a HYPOCRITE?  From experience we know how much you really know about TRUE Gurbani and our history.  

We have without doubt exposed Dhunda’s limited intelligence with lack of knowledge in general, and Gurbani in particular.   Further we showed that with his limited intelligence he, full of ego, doubts Gurbani, relaying on reason, logic and critical thinking to establish misleading explanation of Gurbani.  All these are important for the Sangat to know.

Desperation amongst the dera crowd must have a limit.

Who is the DESPERADO?  Think about it. 

What have you Kala Afghana Brigade done to show other than creating doubts and division in the Sangat?  

Suggest you go and read Dya Singh’s comment in Asia Samachar article at LINK C.


Our suggestion to you, as NAMDEV IMPLIES IN THIS SHABAD, is that you shed your high and mighty educated reason, logic and critical thinking based analysis of Gurbani and trying to distort Gurbani with results that you provide a distorted version of Gurbani and our history some of which are listed below (also see LINK D):

  • Amrit vela is anytime one chooses.
  • Amrit vela is the first phase, early stage of life from conception to 1 year.
  • Simran, Jap, meditation is useless.
  • Mythological references in SGGS Ji should be removed.
  • Guru Nanak’s father was a minister at the court of the King.

You should UNLEARN the Kala Afghana indoctrination you acquired overseas 


RELEARN the Gurbani through the eyes of what our forefathers taught us based on the long standing tenets and practices from the time of our Gurus.


SANGAT JI keep away from this KALA AFGHANA ideologists, whose preaching is totally based on LOGIC, REASON AND CRITICAL THINKING.  This approach misleads Gurbani.  Namdev, in the Shabad above gives us this very same advice.

Thank You for reading.  ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖਾਲਸਾ  ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਹ

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